JOEL HEMPHILL denying the diety of Christ

Post by SG Fan
What in the world is going on??????
Ray Boltz is gay, and now Joel Hemphill is turning his back on the
Christ he preached, wrote, and sang about for half a century nearly.
What thinks AMGS??

OK, so Ray Boltz, Kirk Talley, Tom Netherton and possibly Mark Lowry are gay
but where did you get this thing about Joel Hemphill?

SG Fan

2008-10-10 16:35:12 UTC

OK, so Ray Boltz, Kirk Talley, Tom Netherton and possibly Mark Lowry are gay
but where did you get this thing about Joel Hemphill?

Mark Lowry gay? What is your source?

Willy

2008-10-10 17:39:16 UTC

OK, so Ray Boltz, Kirk Talley, Tom Netherton and possibly Mark Lowry are gay
but where did you get this thing about Joel Hemphill?

Mark Lowry gay? What is your source?

............................................................................................

Mark Lowry has never said he is gay, nor even remotely suggested it.

This whole conversation came about resulting from the Ray Boltz article,
within which the author took the liberty of suggesting that Mark may be gay
(since he's single) and asked Mark for an interview on the subject, which he
declined. The author also took liberty of mentioning several others who
have come out in recent years.

Would you want to be interviewed by an author writing an article about
someone else coming "out"? I doubt it, and I'm sure Mark felt the same way.

Wes (aka Willy)

David Bruce Murray

2008-10-13 05:36:34 UTC

Post by Willy
(since he's single)

Everything Gaither said tied in with the message in the song lyric composed
by a teenager, who didn't come out as a lesbian until years later.

Stevens didn't take it that way. After the concert, she put the photo of
herself, her partner, Bill and Mark on her website. She then recounted the
event to imply that Bill said Christ accepts her lesbian lifestyle. She took
all of his comments as being directed to her personally rather than to the
whole crowd.

The whole thing caused such a stir that Bill later issued a press release
clarifying what he really meant. That press release is still posted here:
http://www.singingnews.com/news/sg_wire/story_detail.lasso?id=35494

(You may need a subscription to view the Singing News link. I'm not sure.)

As a response to THAT press release, the gays involved with the MCC
denomination issued their own essentially stating that they thought they
knew what Bill Gaither meant better than he did. They believe the Stevens
version of the story, naturally. That press release is here:
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-723.html

Of course, there were some kooks at the other end of the spectrum who were
quick to distort the story as well. One website still denounces Bill for
allowing Stevens to "perform" at one of his concerts, which never actually
happened. They evidently looked at the video and mistook Kim Hopper for
Marsha Stevens. See:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/CCM/marsha_stevens.htm

David Bruce Murray

Pastor Dan

2008-10-13 11:08:54 UTC

On Oct 13, 1:36 am, "David Bruce Murray"

Post by David Bruce Murray

Post by Willy
(since he's single)

There's a lot more to it than that. The gay reporters who wrote the Ray
Boltz story in the "The Blade" took an opportunity to get back at Bill
Gaither by listing Mark Lowry. The wording is completely speculative.
Remember, the group of Metropolitan Community Church congregations is a
critical source for the article. Boltz is performing at two of their
churches.
Why would a gay reporter, or more specifically, the MC church, want to
A 16 year old teenager named Marsha Stevens co-wrote "For Those Tears I
Died" many years ago. She has since come out as a lesbian.
In 2002, Stevens was photographed before a Homecoming event along with her
lesbian partner, Bill Gaither and Mark Lowry. During the concert, Gaither
mentioned that Stevens was in the audience. Kim Hopper sang a verse of "For
Those Tears I Died" with the crowd joining in on the chorus. Gaither then
made a few comments about the song, and again acknowledged Stevens being in
the audience. His comments quickly shifted to a general tone about how Jesus
invites you to come as you are. He then invited the entire audience to sing
the chorus of the song again.
You can watch the video http://youtu.be/uP8bO7jBIao
Everything Gaither said tied in with the message in the song lyric composed
by a teenager, who didn't come out as a lesbian until years later.
Stevens didn't take it that way. After the concert, she put the photo of
herself, her partner, Bill and Mark on her website. She then recounted the
event to imply that Bill said Christ accepts her lesbian lifestyle. She took
all of his comments as being directed to her personally rather than to the
whole crowd.
The whole thing caused such a stir that Bill later issued a press release
clarifying what he really meant. That press release is still posted here:http://www.singingnews.com/news/sg_wire/story_detail.lasso?id=35494
(You may need a subscription to view the Singing News link. I'm not sure.)
As a response to THAT press release, the gays involved with the MCC
denomination issued their own essentially stating that they thought they
knew what Bill Gaither meant better than he did. They believe the Stevens
version of the story, naturally. That press release is here:http://www.soulforce.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-723.html
Of course, there were some kooks at the other end of the spectrum who were
quick to distort the story as well. One website still denounces Bill for
allowing Stevens to "perform" at one of his concerts, which never actually
happened. They evidently looked at the video and mistook Kim Hopper for
Marsha Stevens. See:http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/CCM/marsha_steven...
David Bruce Murray

Thank you, Professor, for that comprehensive yet concise background
briefing, which should provide a bit of clarity to the readers here,
and help prevent rumor and innuendo from once again carrying the day.

Should we wonder what Joel Hemphill would have to say about Mark
Lowry? Naw, let's save that for another time. ;)

Jr.

2008-10-13 11:26:25 UTC

Post by David Bruce Murray

Post by Willy
(since he's single)

There's a lot more to it than that. The gay reporters who wrote the Ray
Boltz story in the "The Blade" took an opportunity to get back at Bill
Gaither by listing Mark Lowry. The wording is completely speculative.
Remember, the group of Metropolitan Community Church congregations is a
critical source for the article. Boltz is performing at two of their
churches.
Why would a gay reporter, or more specifically, the MC church, want to
A 16 year old teenager named Marsha Stevens co-wrote "For Those Tears I
Died" many years ago. She has since come out as a lesbian.
In 2002, Stevens was photographed before a Homecoming event along with her
lesbian partner, Bill Gaither and Mark Lowry. During the concert, Gaither
mentioned that Stevens was in the audience. Kim Hopper sang a verse of
"For Those Tears I Died" with the crowd joining in on the chorus. Gaither
then made a few comments about the song, and again acknowledged Stevens
being in the audience. His comments quickly shifted to a general tone
about how Jesus invites you to come as you are. He then invited the entire
audience to sing the chorus of the song again.
http://youtu.be/uP8bO7jBIao
Everything Gaither said tied in with the message in the song lyric
composed by a teenager, who didn't come out as a lesbian until years
later.
Stevens didn't take it that way. After the concert, she put the photo of
herself, her partner, Bill and Mark on her website. She then recounted the
event to imply that Bill said Christ accepts her lesbian lifestyle. She
took all of his comments as being directed to her personally rather than
to the whole crowd.
The whole thing caused such a stir that Bill later issued a press release
http://www.singingnews.com/news/sg_wire/story_detail.lasso?id=35494
(You may need a subscription to view the Singing News link. I'm not sure.)
As a response to THAT press release, the gays involved with the MCC
denomination issued their own essentially stating that they thought they
knew what Bill Gaither meant better than he did. They believe the Stevens
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-723.html
Of course, there were some kooks at the other end of the spectrum who were
quick to distort the story as well. One website still denounces Bill for
allowing Stevens to "perform" at one of his concerts, which never actually
happened. They evidently looked at the video and mistook Kim Hopper for
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/CCM/marsha_stevens.htm
David Bruce Murray

Thanks, David, that was what I was looking for.
Everybody that jumped on my failed to see the word "possibly" that I put
before Mark's name. Speculation is still out there about Mark in part due to
his dating Janet Paschal for some time and "no straight guy would ever dump
her" LOL

Hank Gillette

2008-10-13 18:44:55 UTC

Post by Jr.
Thanks, David, that was what I was looking for.
Everybody that jumped on my failed to see the word "possibly" that I put
before Mark's name. Speculation is still out there about Mark in part due to
his dating Janet Paschal for some time and "no straight guy would ever dump
her"

Let me make it clear right off that I don't know Mark and without any
word from him, I continue to assume that he is heterosexual.

I never knew that Mark ever dated (and broke up with) Janet Paschal, but
I can see how some people might assume that he is gay. Any male who gets
into his 40s and hasn't married gets some of that.

His comedy act that he did with Bill while part of the Vocal Band came
across as somewhat less than super masculine. In fact, some people might
describe the way he acted as "fruity". Personally, I wouldn't suggest
that someone is gay based on that, but some people who see homosexuals
behind every bush might.

Back when I attended church, there were guys who really liked music and
seemed somewhat effeminate compared to guys who were into sports and
such, but the ones like that I knew got married and had children, so you
can't really tell just based on perceptions.

There is a history in gospel music of making gay related jokes. How many
times did Jim Hamill refer to the tenor singers as "girls"?

--
Hank Gillette

"Mr. McCain now decries greed on Wall Street and suggests a commission be
formed to look into the problem. This is like Casanova coming out for
chastity." -- Garrison Keillor

Willy

2008-10-13 19:58:30 UTC

Post by Hank Gillette

Let me make it clear right off that I don't know Mark and without any
word from him, I continue to assume that he is heterosexual.
I never knew that Mark ever dated (and broke up with) Janet Paschal, but
I can see how some people might assume that he is gay. Any male who gets
into his 40s and hasn't married gets some of that.
His comedy act that he did with Bill while part of the Vocal Band came
across as somewhat less than super masculine. In fact, some people might
describe the way he acted as "fruity". Personally, I wouldn't suggest
that someone is gay based on that, but some people who see homosexuals
behind every bush might.
Back when I attended church, there were guys who really liked music and
seemed somewhat effeminate compared to guys who were into sports and
such, but the ones like that I knew got married and had children, so you
can't really tell just based on perceptions.
There is a history in gospel music of making gay related jokes. How many
times did Jim Hamill refer to the tenor singers as "girls"?
--
Hank Gillette
"Mr. McCain now decries greed on Wall Street and suggests a commission be
formed to look into the problem. This is like Casanova coming out for
chastity." -- Garrison Keillor

Funny that you say that Hank, as I get introduced as "singing the girl's
part" in every concert. LOL

I don't believe Mark ever actually dated Janet, I think Bill used to tease
him about her, sometimes as part of their shtick on stage. I know for sure
he teased him about loosing out after she got engaged, heard that one with
my own ears, and it was very funny indeed.

From everything I've seen and heard, and I've had some pretty good "inside
connections" on the rumblings in SoGos over the years, it would appear to me
that if in fact Mark L. is gay, he must have made the choice to live a
celibate life as there's never been ANY rumors other than folks doing
exactly this, speculating that perhaps he is.

There was also a rumor that this had something to do with his departure from
GVB, but in fact, that is not true based on everything I've heard and read.
Mark has health problems, and is in fact having some degree of hearing
impairment as I understand it, and that was a primary factor in his decision
to slow down. I did see him at the NQC last month and he looked great - is
aging gracefully I'd say.

You cannot judge a person by whether or not they're super macho or a little
fem. Admittedly many gay men are effeminate without a doubt, but I've also
known some VERY straight men (based on everything I could see in their life)
that certainly displayed female characteristics at times. I believe much of
that has to do with being raised without a male figure playing a significant
role in your life - and you tend to pick up expressions from the people that
make the biggest impression on you in your young life - and in this case, it
could be that it was totally female.

Oh well - no need to start an argument so I'll shut up.

Blessings to all,

Wes

David Bruce Murray

2008-10-13 22:51:45 UTC

Post by Hank Gillette
Let me make it clear right off that I don't know Mark and without any
word from him, I continue to assume that he is heterosexual.

Same here.

Post by Hank Gillette
I never knew that Mark ever dated (and broke up with) Janet Paschal, but
I can see how some people might assume that he is gay. Any male who gets
into his 40s and hasn't married gets some of that.

That last sentence is true, unfortunately. People always want to assume the
worst. That's not a valid basis for such an assumption, though. Ray Boltz
had been married for years, for example. The fact that Mark dated Janet
Paschal, to me, proves he has great taste in women. Why are people assuming
he dumped her, by the way? I can't see him doing that, but I could certainly
see her dumping him.

Post by Hank Gillette
Back when I attended church, there were guys who really liked music and
seemed somewhat effeminate compared to guys who were into sports and
such, but the ones like that I knew got married and had children, so you
can't really tell just based on perceptions.

Ray Boltz has proved once again that you can't tell if they're heterosexual
based on them being married.

Post by Hank Gillette
There is a history in gospel music of making gay related jokes. How many
times did Jim Hamill refer to the tenor singers as "girls"?

Comedy of that nature is over-used and tiring, but really, I don't think of
that as a "gay joke." "Looks like a man, but sounds like a woman" = "tenor."
Hilarious...until you've heard it 1000 times. You've already established,
though, that a man with a female trait or two (high voice, prissy demeanor,
appreciates art/music, etc.) doesn't necessarily mean that man is gay.

David Bruce Murray

Willy

2008-10-13 17:52:37 UTC

Post by David Bruce Murray

Post by Willy
(since he's single)

There's a lot more to it than that. The gay reporters who wrote the Ray
Boltz story in the "The Blade" took an opportunity to get back at Bill
Gaither by listing Mark Lowry. The wording is completely speculative.
Remember, the group of Metropolitan Community Church congregations is a
critical source for the article. Boltz is performing at two of their
churches.
Why would a gay reporter, or more specifically, the MC church, want to
A 16 year old teenager named Marsha Stevens co-wrote "For Those Tears I
Died" many years ago. She has since come out as a lesbian.
In 2002, Stevens was photographed before a Homecoming event along with her
lesbian partner, Bill Gaither and Mark Lowry. During the concert, Gaither
mentioned that Stevens was in the audience. Kim Hopper sang a verse of
"For Those Tears I Died" with the crowd joining in on the chorus. Gaither
then made a few comments about the song, and again acknowledged Stevens
being in the audience. His comments quickly shifted to a general tone
about how Jesus invites you to come as you are. He then invited the entire
audience to sing the chorus of the song again.
http://youtu.be/uP8bO7jBIao
Everything Gaither said tied in with the message in the song lyric
composed by a teenager, who didn't come out as a lesbian until years
later.
Stevens didn't take it that way. After the concert, she put the photo of
herself, her partner, Bill and Mark on her website. She then recounted the
event to imply that Bill said Christ accepts her lesbian lifestyle. She
took all of his comments as being directed to her personally rather than
to the whole crowd.
The whole thing caused such a stir that Bill later issued a press release
http://www.singingnews.com/news/sg_wire/story_detail.lasso?id=35494
(You may need a subscription to view the Singing News link. I'm not sure.)
As a response to THAT press release, the gays involved with the MCC
denomination issued their own essentially stating that they thought they
knew what Bill Gaither meant better than he did. They believe the Stevens
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-723.html
Of course, there were some kooks at the other end of the spectrum who were
quick to distort the story as well. One website still denounces Bill for
allowing Stevens to "perform" at one of his concerts, which never actually
happened. They evidently looked at the video and mistook Kim Hopper for
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/CCM/marsha_stevens.htm
David Bruce Murray

Thanks for doing all the work - I started to look it all up to answer JR's
questions, but was just too pressed for time. Excellent job David!

Wes

Hank Gillette

2008-10-11 02:39:27 UTC

In article

Post by SG Fan
Mark Lowry gay? What is your source?

Maybe BenchMade discerned it.

--
Hank Gillette

"Mr. McCain now decries greed on Wall Street and suggests a commission be
formed to look into the problem. This is like Casanova coming out for
chastity." -- Garrison Keillor

Willy

2008-10-13 17:43:13 UTC

Post by Hank Gillette
In article

Post by SG Fan
Mark Lowry gay? What is your source?

Maybe BenchMade discerned it.
--
Hank Gillette
"Mr. McCain now decries greed on Wall Street and suggests a commission be
formed to look into the problem. This is like Casanova coming out for
chastity." -- Garrison Keillor

You know, I think BenchMade, whom I had never heard of before, was just
trying to stir up some activity in this group, and generally irritate a
handful of us......

I think that's commonly referred to as a "troll".....

Wes

Jr.

2008-10-13 02:11:47 UTC

OK, so Ray Boltz, Kirk Talley, Tom Netherton and possibly Mark Lowry are gay
but where did you get this thing about Joel Hemphill?

Mark Lowry gay? What is your source?

Actually, I am still looking for it. I remember an article about how Bill
Gaither shelters the gay and how he continually allowed them to perform with
him despite the fact that he knew they were gay.
Mark was one of the people listed as being suspect.

It was on this newsgroup for quite awhile while we were discussing Tom
Netherton and Kirk Talley.

Willy

2008-10-13 17:50:12 UTC

OK, so Ray Boltz, Kirk Talley, Tom Netherton and possibly Mark Lowry are gay
but where did you get this thing about Joel Hemphill?

Mark Lowry gay? What is your source?
Actually, I am still looking for it. I remember an article about how Bill
Gaither shelters the gay and how he continually allowed them to perform
with him despite the fact that he knew they were gay.
Mark was one of the people listed as being suspect.
It was on this newsgroup for quite awhile while we were discussing Tom
Netherton and Kirk Talley.

Actually the Ray Boltz article about his "coming out" to friends and family
is what most recently suggested that Mark L. may be gay. If you'd like a
link to the article, let me know and I"ll look it up.

Regarding the Gaither story, I can't imagine where you got that, but Bill
clearly shut out a female performer in particular after she came out, and
even made some very negative comments. I definitely don't see him doing any
"sheltering"... can't even imagine where that would have originated.

If Bill Gaither is willing to openly make a public statement that is
anti-gay, then I don't see how anyone could accuse him of such, do you?

Wes

Willy

2008-10-09 14:37:18 UTC

Admittedly Joel has had some strange doctrines over the years, starting with
oneness and then creating several new concepts, but this is the first I've
heard of this one.

Was is your source?

Wes

Pastor Dan

2008-10-09 23:17:44 UTC

Admittedly Joel has had some strange doctrines over the years, starting with
oneness and then creating several new concepts, but this is the first I've
heard of this one.
Was is your source?
Wes

I have the same question as Paul & Wes. For heaven's sake, don't
believe everything you hear; people will think you're a
_______________ voter. Oh, did I say that out loud? ;D

SG Fan

2008-10-10 07:27:13 UTC

Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
Here it is:
http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

Pastor Dan

2008-10-10 12:13:37 UTC

Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
Here it is:http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

SG Fan

2008-10-10 16:44:29 UTC

Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
Here it is:http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

Dan, what kind of Pastor are you?

On praying/sick. Can't but help to be sick. I have loved Hemphill
music for years.
As for prayer, trust me I have. I wonder what the likelihood of Joel
turning around is?
Honestly, I don't see it happening. He seems to be on some sort of
mission to push this false
doctrine with not only his book, but a series of study CD's.

I wonder if LaBreeska is staying true to Christ?

Not so with Candy, though. Go to Candy's website, though and click on
her "beliefs button". She acknowledges the diety of Christ in the
first line.

Pastor Dan

2008-10-11 13:36:33 UTC

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

Dan, what kind of Pastor are you?

I suppose there are several ways to answer this. I'll try to guess
the real question behind your question, and tell you that I am
bivocational, middle-aged, 50% Irish, 50% German, 100% Christian
American Buckeye. If you want more information, check out the church
website, http://www.ashleywesleyan.org. If that doesn't answer your
question, my phone numer's on there.

SG Fan

2008-10-11 17:07:03 UTC

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

Dan, what kind of Pastor are you?

I suppose there are several ways to answer this. I'll try to guess
the real question behind your question, and tell you that I am
bivocational, middle-aged, 50% Irish, 50% German, 100% Christian
American Buckeye. If you want more information, check out the church
website,http://www.ashleywesleyan.org. If that doesn't answer your
question, my phone numer's on there.

Ah, from OHIO. I knew it!
*leaves holding nose*

James Moore

2008-10-11 17:24:15 UTC

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

Dan, what kind of Pastor are you?

I suppose there are several ways to answer this. I'll try to guess
the real question behind your question, and tell you that I am
bivocational, middle-aged, 50% Irish, 50% German, 100% Christian
American Buckeye. If you want more information, check out the church
website,http://www.ashleywesleyan.org. If that doesn't answer your
question, my phone numer's on there.

Ah, from OHIO. I knew it!
*leaves holding nose*

SG Fan what kind of a church do you like? Is there only one denomation
you want to exist, and in only one state? If so I really don`t
understand you, maybe you`re like the person in a story I heard about
one old person sitting up in Heaven in a rocking chair saying "Look
How Great I Am." Remember the song "If There`s Nobody Saved But Me"-Is
that how you feel?

James

SG Fan

2008-10-11 21:48:05 UTC

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

Dan, what kind of Pastor are you?

I suppose there are several ways to answer this. I'll try to guess
the real question behind your question, and tell you that I am
bivocational, middle-aged, 50% Irish, 50% German, 100% Christian
American Buckeye. If you want more information, check out the church
website,http://www.ashleywesleyan.org. If that doesn't answer your
question, my phone numer's on there.

Ah, from OHIO. I knew it!
*leaves holding nose*

Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazerene among others.

James, what is your problem with me? Please be specific.
Thanks.
In Christ,
Chuck Buckner

James Moore

2008-10-11 22:16:59 UTC

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

Dan, what kind of Pastor are you?

I suppose there are several ways to answer this. I'll try to guess
the real question behind your question, and tell you that I am
bivocational, middle-aged, 50% Irish, 50% German, 100% Christian
American Buckeye. If you want more information, check out the church
website,http://www.ashleywesleyan.org. If that doesn't answer your
question, my phone numer's on there.

Ah, from OHIO. I knew it!
*leaves holding nose*

Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazerene among others.
James, what is your problem with me? Please be specific.
Thanks.
In Christ,
Chuck Buckner- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Read my email Chuck.

James

Willy

2008-10-13 17:46:15 UTC

On Oct 10, 7:13 am, Pastor Dan

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

Dan, what kind of Pastor are you?

I suppose there are several ways to answer this. I'll try to guess
the real question behind your question, and tell you that I am
bivocational, middle-aged, 50% Irish, 50% German, 100% Christian
American Buckeye. If you want more information, check out the church
website,http://www.ashleywesleyan.org. If that doesn't answer your
question, my phone numer's on there.

Ah, from OHIO. I knew it!
*leaves holding nose*

Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazerene among others.
James, what is your problem with me? Please be specific.
Thanks.
In Christ,
Chuck Buckner- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Read my email Chuck.

James

James:

God bless you brother, but I think you took SG's comments too seriously. I
think he was just sort of poking fun at us Buckeye's... SG has NEVER
implied that he is close minded and only believes in one faith tradition -
in fact, quite the opposite is true.

I'm thinking perhaps you may have him confused with someone else that shares
a similar identity.

God bless,

Wes

Pastor Dan

2008-10-12 12:33:30 UTC

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

Dan, what kind of Pastor are you?

I suppose there are several ways to answer this. I'll try to guess
the real question behind your question, and tell you that I am
bivocational, middle-aged, 50% Irish, 50% German, 100% Christian
American Buckeye. If you want more information, check out the church
website,http://www.ashleywesleyan.org. If that doesn't answer your
question, my phone numer's on there.

Ah, from OHIO. I knew it!
*leaves holding nose*

Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazerene among others.
James, what is your problem with me? Please be specific.
Thanks.
In Christ,
Chuck Buckner- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Wesleyans and Nazarenes are practically identical in doctrine.

SG Fan

2008-10-12 19:59:38 UTC

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

Dan, what kind of Pastor are you?

I suppose there are several ways to answer this. I'll try to guess
the real question behind your question, and tell you that I am
bivocational, middle-aged, 50% Irish, 50% German, 100% Christian
American Buckeye. If you want more information, check out the church
website,http://www.ashleywesleyan.org. If that doesn't answer your
question, my phone numer's on there.

Ah, from OHIO. I knew it!
*leaves holding nose*

Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazerene among others.
James, what is your problem with me? Please be specific.
Thanks.
In Christ,
Chuck Buckner- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Wesleyans and Nazarenes are practically identical in doctrine.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

That's what I gathered from your site. There aren't any of those
churches around here I don't guess.

Willy

2008-10-13 17:46:58 UTC

On Oct 10, 7:13 am, Pastor Dan

Well, don't be sick. Be in prayer.

Dan, what kind of Pastor are you?

I suppose there are several ways to answer this. I'll try to guess
the real question behind your question, and tell you that I am
bivocational, middle-aged, 50% Irish, 50% German, 100% Christian
American Buckeye. If you want more information, check out the
church
website,http://www.ashleywesleyan.org. If that doesn't answer your
question, my phone numer's on there.

Ah, from OHIO. I knew it!
*leaves holding nose*

Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazerene among others.
James, what is your problem with me? Please be specific.
Thanks.
In Christ,
Chuck Buckner- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Wesleyans and Nazarenes are practically identical in doctrine.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

That's what I gathered from your site. There aren't any of those
churches around here I don't gue................

.............................................

Remind me again SG, where are you located?

Wes

Willy

2008-10-10 17:42:23 UTC

Post by SG Fan
Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

It almost reads to me as though Joel is heading back to the oneness doctrine
from whence he originated, though with a slightly different twist. Honestly
I don't see that Joel is denying anything per se... just a different point
of view... looking through a different lense.

Can't we all agree that there IS a God, there WAS and IS his son Jesus
Christ who died for our sins, rose again and reigns in heaven.

What does it REALLY matter the EXACT interpretation of the other factors
surrounding this world changing event?

Wes

SG Fan

2008-10-10 18:20:00 UTC

Post by Willy
Can't we all agree that there IS a God, there WAS and IS his son Jesus
Christ who died for our sins, rose again and reigns in heaven.
What does it REALLY matter the EXACT interpretation of the other factors
surrounding this world changing event?
Wes

His teaching is that Christ is a created being, and that Christ does
not exist in the Godhead. He also teaches that Christ in not worthy
of praying to.
His doctrine is basically the same as mormon and jehova witness',

I won't argue the point with you though wes, or willy (which is it?).
You either accept the Christ who was God in the flesh or you don't.
But know this, you must believe He is deity to accept true salvation,
otherwise it's a false religion with know hope.

Reverend Ozone

2008-10-11 00:16:50 UTC

The "diety"?

You mean, what he ate?

We don't really know, do we? (except for the Lasty Suppery, of course).

<sorry, couldn't resist, imminent repentance ensues>

--
Reverend Ozone

"Homo Sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Willy

2008-10-13 17:41:58 UTC

His teaching is that Christ is a created being, and that Christ does
not exist in the Godhead. He also teaches that Christ in not worthy
of praying to.
His doctrine is basically the same as mormon and jehova witness',
I won't argue the point with you though wes, or willy (which is it?).
You either accept the Christ who was God in the flesh or you don't.
But know this, you must believe He is deity to accept true salvation,
otherwise it's a false religion with know hope.

Reading my name, just as an fyi, for MANY years I used the name "Willy" on
all the newsgroups I participated in. Back in the days when newsgroups were
REALLY popular, and before Spam became the demon it is today (LOL) most
everyone used a fictitious identity, or "handle" which goes back to CB radio
days, which was really popular at that time.

Over the years on many newsgroups I used my real name, Wes (actually it's
William Wesley which is where the "willy" came from) but continued to use
Willy in this newsgroup just to avoid confusion since it's such a small
group and we all seem to know each other to at least a small extinct. And
of course there are some here that strongly disagree with my views (just as
I do theirs LOL) and some have even blocked me from their readers. And
that's fine, albeit childish, but at the same time I didn't want to give the
appearance of "changing my name" as I felt some would, once again in error,
think that I was trying to somehow change who I am or appear to be.

So... with that said, I shall hereafter always use my real name "Wes"...
unless someone makes a comment (as happened last week) about "Willy" which
required me to defend myself!!!!

I love this group - just wish it was a little more active. SoGos I'm afraid
is dying off.

Such a shame!

Love you guys,

Wes

Hank Gillette

2008-10-13 18:27:08 UTC

Post by Willy
I love this group - just wish it was a little more active. SoGos I'm afraid
is dying off.

--
Hank Gillette

"Mr. McCain now decries greed on Wall Street and suggests a commission be
formed to look into the problem. This is like Casanova coming out for
chastity." -- Garrison Keillor

Willy

2008-10-13 20:10:58 UTC

Post by Hank Gillette

Post by Willy
I love this group - just wish it was a little more active. SoGos I'm afraid
is dying off.

Usenet in general is dying off. A lot of internet providers have dropped
the alt. groups claiming that they are doing it to fight child
pornography. A lot of people have moved to web chat groups. I believe
there are several southern gospel web groups that have considerable
traffic.
I agree that the "golden age" of southern gospel is behind us, but the
decline of this group is not really proof that it is dying off.
--
Hank Gillette
"Mr. McCain now decries greed on Wall Street and suggests a commission be
formed to look into the problem. This is like Casanova coming out for
chastity." -- Garrison Keillor

I'll tell you why I say dying off Hank. In the South, without a doubt, it
still is big time popular. In fact, just having returned from Alabama,
SoGos quartets are EVERY WHERE.

But I live in Aurora, OH, which is basically Cleveland, OH. Last Saturday
night I went to a Brian Free Concert. It was at a Freewill Baptist Church
in Cleveland.

If there were 200 people there, that would have been the max!!!!! The
church was only slightly more than 1/2 full. And the concert was FREE...
love offering.

And it was an incredible concert... TOP SHELF... I enjoyed it immensely.
But my point is, once you head North of the Mason Dixon, finding SoGos is
almost impossible.

I can tell you that finding places for our quartet to sing has proven
profoundly difficult, and we really do sound "okay"... (check us out on
our website when you have time)... but we are planning to hire a promoter
as soon as our recording project is completed as we just simply can't find
places to sing. And we don't charge! Freewill offering is all we ever ask
for. We contact churches through a variety of means, mailings (for which we
have never had a response), phone calls, and personal contacts. We sing
more county fairs and city sponsored events, along with some television
shows than anything.

Why? The churches in our market, including my own home church, don't even
know what you're saying when you use the term "Southern Gospel"... they've
simply never heard of it.

It's sad, but it's true... and as I look at the age of the crowd at the NQC
or at a Gaither concert, it's mostly all gray hair (or at least it would be
"naturally"... ).... LOL... or bald like me!

We're a dying breed I'm afraid... but it will always be my passion.

Wes

Pastor Dan

2008-10-15 01:51:10 UTC

Post by Hank Gillette

Post by Willy
I love this group - just wish it was a little more active. SoGos I'm
afraid
is dying off.

I'll tell you why I say dying off Hank. In the South, without a doubt, it
still is big time popular. In fact, just having returned from Alabama,
SoGos quartets are EVERY WHERE.
But I live in Aurora, OH, which is basically Cleveland, OH. Last Saturday
night I went to a Brian Free Concert. It was at a Freewill Baptist Church
in Cleveland.
If there were 200 people there, that would have been the max!!!!! The
church was only slightly more than 1/2 full. And the concert was FREE...
love offering.
And it was an incredible concert... TOP SHELF... I enjoyed it immensely.
But my point is, once you head North of the Mason Dixon, finding SoGos is
almost impossible.
I can tell you that finding places for our quartet to sing has proven
profoundly difficult, and we really do sound "okay"... (check us out on
our website when you have time)... but we are planning to hire a promoter
as soon as our recording project is completed as we just simply can't find
places to sing. And we don't charge! Freewill offering is all we ever ask
for. We contact churches through a variety of means, mailings (for which we
have never had a response), phone calls, and personal contacts. We sing
more county fairs and city sponsored events, along with some television
shows than anything.
Why? The churches in our market, including my own home church, don't even
know what you're saying when you use the term "Southern Gospel"... they've
simply never heard of it.
It's sad, but it's true... and as I look at the age of the crowd at the NQC
or at a Gaither concert, it's mostly all gray hair (or at least it would be
"naturally"... ).... LOL... or bald like me!
We're a dying breed I'm afraid... but it will always be my passion.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Hey, Wes Willy, did I ever ask you how far your quartet's willing to
travel, and for how small a venue?

James Moore

2008-10-13 18:29:12 UTC

His teaching is that Christ is a created being, and that Christ does
not exist in the Godhead. He also teaches that Christ in not worthy
of praying to.
His doctrine is basically the same as mormon and jehova witness',
I won't argue the point with you though wes, or willy (which is it?).
You either accept the Christ who was God in the flesh or you don't.
But know this, you must believe He is deity to accept true salvation,
otherwise it's a false religion with know hope.

Reading my name, just as an fyi, for MANY years I used the name "Willy" on
all the newsgroups I participated in. Back in the days when newsgroups were
REALLY popular, and before Spam became the demon it is today (LOL) most
everyone used a fictitious identity, or "handle" which goes back to CB radio
days, which was really popular at that time.
Over the years on many newsgroups I used my real name, Wes (actually it's
William Wesley which is where the "willy" came from) but continued to use
Willy in this newsgroup just to avoid confusion since it's such a small
group and we all seem to know each other to at least a small extinct. And
of course there are some here that strongly disagree with my views (just as
I do theirs LOL) and some have even blocked me from their readers. And
that's fine, albeit childish, but at the same time I didn't want to give the
appearance of "changing my name" as I felt some would, once again in error,
think that I was trying to somehow change who I am or appear to be.
So... with that said, I shall hereafter always use my real name "Wes"...
unless someone makes a comment (as happened last week) about "Willy" which
required me to defend myself!!!!
I love this group - just wish it was a little more active. SoGos I'm afraid
is dying off.
Such a shame!
Love you guys,
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Wes, I hope Sogos isn`t dying off, I don`t want to change SGM Trivia
to CGM Trivia (contemporary or country).

James

Willy

2008-10-13 20:11:56 UTC

His teaching is that Christ is a created being, and that Christ does
not exist in the Godhead. He also teaches that Christ in not worthy
of praying to.
His doctrine is basically the same as mormon and jehova witness',
I won't argue the point with you though wes, or willy (which is it?).
You either accept the Christ who was God in the flesh or you don't.
But know this, you must believe He is deity to accept true salvation,
otherwise it's a false religion with know hope.

Reading my name, just as an fyi, for MANY years I used the name "Willy" on
all the newsgroups I participated in. Back in the days when newsgroups
were
REALLY popular, and before Spam became the demon it is today (LOL) most
everyone used a fictitious identity, or "handle" which goes back to CB radio
days, which was really popular at that time.
Over the years on many newsgroups I used my real name, Wes (actually it's
William Wesley which is where the "willy" came from) but continued to use
Willy in this newsgroup just to avoid confusion since it's such a small
group and we all seem to know each other to at least a small extinct. And
of course there are some here that strongly disagree with my views (just as
I do theirs LOL) and some have even blocked me from their readers. And
that's fine, albeit childish, but at the same time I didn't want to give the
appearance of "changing my name" as I felt some would, once again in error,
think that I was trying to somehow change who I am or appear to be.
So... with that said, I shall hereafter always use my real name "Wes"...
unless someone makes a comment (as happened last week) about "Willy" which
required me to defend myself!!!!
I love this group - just wish it was a little more active. SoGos I'm
afraid
is dying off.
Such a shame!
Love you guys,
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Wes, I hope Sogos isn`t dying off, I don`t want to change SGM Trivia
to CGM Trivia (contemporary or country).

James

See my post to Hank in this same topic, where I share I feel it really is
dying off. And I hate that!!!

Wes

Pastor Dan

2008-10-14 11:28:56 UTC

Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

It almost reads to me as though Joel is heading back to the oneness doctrine
from whence he originated, though with a slightly different twist. Honestly
I don't see that Joel is denying anything per se... just a different point
of view... looking through a different lense.
Can't we all agree that there IS a God, there WAS and IS his son Jesus
Christ who died for our sins, rose again and reigns in heaven.
What does it REALLY matter the EXACT interpretation of the other factors
surrounding this world changing event?
Wes

Willy

2008-10-14 19:02:31 UTC

Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

It almost reads to me as though Joel is heading back to the oneness doctrine
from whence he originated, though with a slightly different twist.
Honestly
I don't see that Joel is denying anything per se... just a different point
of view... looking through a different lense.
Can't we all agree that there IS a God, there WAS and IS his son Jesus
Christ who died for our sins, rose again and reigns in heaven.
What does it REALLY matter the EXACT interpretation of the other factors
surrounding this world changing event?
Wes

One thing for which I've been thankful for years is that Wesleyans
don't think they'll be the only ones in heaven. Typically, when we
see that exclusivity perspective, we're talking about a group that's
already pretty far away from the central tenets of Christianity.

....................................

I totally 100% agree with you, in fact I've found that to be true 100% of
the time, just in it's very nature it becomes cultish when churches do that.
And there's a LOT of protestant denominations that really DO believe that at
their core. I can think of several that believe in exclusivity, in fact,
just for fun, let's start a list and see who can add:

1. United Pentecostal
2. Church of Christ
3. Seventh Day Adventist (I believe I'm correct on this one)
4. Jehovah's Witness
5. Worldwide Church of God (Ted Garner Armstrong)
6.

James Moore

2008-10-14 21:40:32 UTC

Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

It almost reads to me as though Joel is heading back to the oneness doctrine
from whence he originated, though with a slightly different twist. Honestly
I don't see that Joel is denying anything per se... just a different point
of view... looking through a different lense.
Can't we all agree that there IS a God, there WAS and IS his son Jesus
Christ who died for our sins, rose again and reigns in heaven.
What does it REALLY matter the EXACT interpretation of the other factors
surrounding this world changing event?
Wes

I really don`t understand why ANYONE would think people of their
belief would be the only one in Heaven.I was raised in an Assembly of
God and still attended a Pentecostal church and we certainly don`t
believe that at church(I don`t know about all churches). IMO one thing
is required to get to Heaven-FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

James

Willy

2008-10-15 00:08:53 UTC

Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

It almost reads to me as though Joel is heading back to the oneness doctrine
from whence he originated, though with a slightly different twist.
Honestly
I don't see that Joel is denying anything per se... just a different
point
of view... looking through a different lense.
Can't we all agree that there IS a God, there WAS and IS his son Jesus
Christ who died for our sins, rose again and reigns in heaven.
What does it REALLY matter the EXACT interpretation of the other factors
surrounding this world changing event?
Wes

Jr.

2008-10-15 11:50:24 UTC

Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

It almost reads to me as though Joel is heading back to the oneness doctrine
from whence he originated, though with a slightly different twist.
Honestly
I don't see that Joel is denying anything per se... just a different
point
of view... looking through a different lense.
Can't we all agree that there IS a God, there WAS and IS his son Jesus
Christ who died for our sins, rose again and reigns in heaven.
What does it REALLY matter the EXACT interpretation of the other factors
surrounding this world changing event?
Wes

Umm, don't we Christians think we are the only ones going to heaven?
Actually, the Bible tells us that we ARE the only ones that will go to
heaven.

Pastor Dan

2008-10-16 16:08:03 UTC

Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

It almost reads to me as though Joel is heading back to the oneness doctrine
from whence he originated, though with a slightly different twist.
Honestly
I don't see that Joel is denying anything per se... just a different
point
of view... looking through a different lense.
Can't we all agree that there IS a God, there WAS and IS his son Jesus
Christ who died for our sins, rose again and reigns in heaven.
What does it REALLY matter the EXACT interpretation of the other factors
surrounding this world changing event?
Wes

Umm, don't we Christians think we are the only ones going to heaven?
Actually, the Bible tells us that we ARE the only ones that will go to
heaven.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

True enough, Paul. Good point. I was thinking in a narrower sense,
as in the more cultic fringe. It is still true that no one comes to
the Father except through the Son.

Willy

2008-10-16 20:32:56 UTC

Gentlemen, I got it straight from Joel Hemphill's website. I'm still
sick over this.
http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

It almost reads to me as though Joel is heading back to the oneness doctrine
from whence he originated, though with a slightly different twist.
Honestly
I don't see that Joel is denying anything per se... just a different
point
of view... looking through a different lense.
Can't we all agree that there IS a God, there WAS and IS his son Jesus
Christ who died for our sins, rose again and reigns in heaven.
What does it REALLY matter the EXACT interpretation of the other factors
surrounding this world changing event?
Wes

Umm, don't we Christians think we are the only ones going to heaven?
Actually, the Bible tells us that we ARE the only ones that will go to
heaven.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

True enough, Paul. Good point. I was thinking in a narrower sense,
as in the more cultic fringe. It is still true that no one comes to
the Father except through the Son.

...................................................

So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the Christ's death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are going to be
eternally separated from God with no chance?

What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power, and what if
they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of Christ?

Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me that God is
a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life places you in the
wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be doomed Godless!

Wes

Carol LeFevre

2008-10-16 22:38:13 UTC

Wes,
The Bible states that "the heavens declare the glory of God and the
firmament showeth His handiwork". Anyone, everyone, who just looks
about them can see...the trees, the flowers, the sky, the sun and moon,
etc. etc. that speaks of a Creator. And anytime a man or woman or
child seeks to know more about this Creator (assuming that they have
never heard the Gospel message preached, or read a Bible) God sends them
more 'light', more information about Him by way of a missionary or
whatever message He chooses to use. If a person truly is looking for
God, the real God, not an idol of their own making, God will absolutely
give them that information.
And, what would someone have a repentant heart about if they had no
knowledge of Christ?
Wes, I am really wondering if you present this question to provoke
debate or if you really don't understand what the Bible teaches. If
this is just to provoke discussion then I can understand but if you sing
in a Gospel quartet and are attempting to spread the Gospel in song and
you clearly don't believe or understand it then you have big problems.
I don't mean to sound ugly or castigate you but would really like to
learn more of what you believe because I believe that the Bible clearly
teaches that salvation is only by Jesus Christ, nothing more, nothing
less and no matter how sincere a person may be in their search for God,
if they don't come by the way of the cross and the blood shed for the
remission of sins then yes, they will die in their sins and go straight
to hell. God IS a God of love but He is also a God of judgement and sin
deserves punishment.
I am sure others will chime in on this topic so I will stop with this
much...at least for now.
Carol

Willy

2008-10-17 00:06:16 UTC

Post by Carol LeFevre
Wes,
The Bible states that "the heavens declare the glory of God and the
firmament showeth His handiwork". Anyone, everyone, who just looks
about them can see...the trees, the flowers, the sky, the sun and moon,
etc. etc. that speaks of a Creator. And anytime a man or woman or
child seeks to know more about this Creator (assuming that they have
never heard the Gospel message preached, or read a Bible) God sends them
more 'light', more information about Him by way of a missionary or
whatever message He chooses to use. If a person truly is looking for
God, the real God, not an idol of their own making, God will absolutely
give them that information.
And, what would someone have a repentant heart about if they had no
knowledge of Christ?
Wes, I am really wondering if you present this question to provoke
debate or if you really don't understand what the Bible teaches. If
this is just to provoke discussion then I can understand but if you sing
in a Gospel quartet and are attempting to spread the Gospel in song and
you clearly don't believe or understand it then you have big problems.
I don't mean to sound ugly or castigate you but would really like to
learn more of what you believe because I believe that the Bible clearly
teaches that salvation is only by Jesus Christ, nothing more, nothing
less and no matter how sincere a person may be in their search for God,
if they don't come by the way of the cross and the blood shed for the
remission of sins then yes, they will die in their sins and go straight
to hell. God IS a God of love but He is also a God of judgement and sin
deserves punishment.
I am sure others will chime in on this topic so I will stop with this
much...at least for now.
Carol

Do I wish to promote conversation, yes. But... let me ask you a simple yes
or no question if I may.

Are you saying that YOU believe that EVERY person that has ever lived back
to Christ's crucifixion forward that hasn't heard about his message through
one of His messengers and accepted Him as a result are eternally damned?

Wes

ps... and yes, I'm perhaps more studied than many, only challenged by those
who study and read full time such as Pastor's, Professor's and true
Theologians.... can be very diverse on Biblical subject matter,
particularly pertaining to the NT.

Carol LeFevre

2008-10-17 13:56:14 UTC

Yes, Wes. My answer is yes.
Carol

Willy

2008-10-17 19:32:14 UTC

Post by Carol LeFevre
Yes, Wes. My answer is yes.
Carol

Carol God loves you and I do too for the purity of your heart... but MAN
are you a literalist!!!!

Nothing wrong with that, just hard to swallow sometimes!!! LOL

Wes

Carol LeFevre

2008-10-17 21:43:25 UTC

Not hard at all. I believe it is called faith. I can't explain it all
but I believe it all.

Carol

Jr.

2008-10-17 12:22:59 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the Christ's death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are going to be
eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power, and what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me that God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life places you in
the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be doomed
Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is yes they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.

The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in heaven is
throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to accept that
fact, we cannot earn it.

Willy

2008-10-17 13:02:03 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the Christ's death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are going to
be eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power, and what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me that God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life places you
in the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be
doomed Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is yes they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.
The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in heaven
is throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to accept
that fact, we cannot earn it.

And you and I totally agree JR... my obvious point being as follows:

1. EVERYONE will have an opportunity to accept salvation. We don't
necessarily know how that works on a spiritual level, but we do know the
Bible says everyone WILL have the opportunity.
2. The apostles had NO IDEA how large the world was, how many humans
actually lived in this world, and they truly believed what they said, based
on Christ's teaching, were applicable to the entire world, as they knew it.
Of course, they also thought that Christ's second coming would be in THEIR
lifetime and taught so... many things they 'thought' with the very best of
intentions.
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time simply don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty of
scripture.

Wes

Pastor Dan

2008-10-17 14:16:02 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the Christ's death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are going to
be eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power, and what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me that God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life places you
in the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be
doomed Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is yes they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.
The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in heaven
is throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to accept
that fact, we cannot earn it.

1. EVERYONE will have an opportunity to accept salvation. We don't
necessarily know how that works on a spiritual level, but we do know the
Bible says everyone WILL have the opportunity.
2. The apostles had NO IDEA how large the world was, how many humans
actually lived in this world, and they truly believed what they said, based
on Christ's teaching, were applicable to the entire world, as they knew it.
Of course, they also thought that Christ's second coming would be in THEIR
lifetime and taught so... many things they 'thought' with the very best of
intentions.
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time simply don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty of
scripture.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Huge topic; deserves a much better answer than I have time to research
and produce today, but I will tackle it soon.

Willy, did you see my question about your quartet's willingness to
travel?

Willy

2008-10-17 19:31:17 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the Christ's death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are going to
be eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power, and what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me that God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life places you
in the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be
doomed Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is yes they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.
The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in heaven
is throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to accept
that fact, we cannot earn it.

Huge topic; deserves a much better answer than I have time to research
and produce today, but I will tackle it soon.

Willy, did you see my question about your quartet's willingness to
travel?

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
No Pastor Dan, somehow I missed that question completely.

Yes, we're willing to travel. Please contact me directly as
***@prodigy.net when you have a moment, or drop us a line using our
website. www.thegospelechoesquartet.com

Thanks,

Wes

SGMfamily

2008-10-21 07:35:22 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the Christ's death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are going to
be eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power, and what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me that God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life places you
in the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be
doomed Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is yes they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.
The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in heaven
is throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to accept
that fact, we cannot earn it.

WILLY, your welcome to come to Nebraska anytime............

Willy

2008-10-22 03:43:54 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the Christ's death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are going to
be eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power, and what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me that God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life places you
in the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be
doomed Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is yes they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.
The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in heaven
is throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to accept
that fact, we cannot earn it.

1. EVERYONE will have an opportunity to accept salvation. We don't
necessarily know how that works on a spiritual level, but we do know the
Bible says everyone WILL have the opportunity.
2. The apostles had NO IDEA how large the world was, how many humans
actually lived in this world, and they truly believed what they said, based
on Christ's teaching, were applicable to the entire world, as they knew it.
Of course, they also thought that Christ's second coming would be in THEIR
lifetime and taught so... many things they 'thought' with the very best
of
intentions.
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are
MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time simply don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty
of
scripture.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WILLY, your welcome to come to Nebraska anytime............

Thanks so much, and we would LOVE to do just that. ANYWHERE, ANYTIME we can
spread the GOOD NEWS... we're ON IT!!! LOL

Wes (Willy)

SGMfamily

2008-10-22 04:20:04 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the Christ's death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are going to
be eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power, and what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me that God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life places you
in the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be
doomed Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is yes they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.
The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in heaven
is throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to accept
that fact, we cannot earn it.

1. EVERYONE will have an opportunity to accept salvation. We don't
necessarily know how that works on a spiritual level, but we do know the
Bible says everyone WILL have the opportunity.
2. The apostles had NO IDEA how large the world was, how many humans
actually lived in this world, and they truly believed what they said, based
on Christ's teaching, were applicable to the entire world, as they knew it.
Of course, they also thought that Christ's second coming would be in THEIR
lifetime and taught so... many things they 'thought' with the very best
of
intentions.
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are
MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time simply don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty
of
scripture.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WILLY, your welcome to come to Nebraska anytime............
Thanks so much, and we would LOVE to do just that. ANYWHERE, ANYTIME we can
spread the GOOD NEWS... we're ON IT!!! LOL
Wes (Willy)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Willy

2008-10-23 03:04:10 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the Christ's death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are
going
to
be eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power, and what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me
that
God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life places you
in the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be
doomed Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is
yes
they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.
The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in heaven
is throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to accept
that fact, we cannot earn it.

1. EVERYONE will have an opportunity to accept salvation. We don't
necessarily know how that works on a spiritual level, but we do know the
Bible says everyone WILL have the opportunity.
2. The apostles had NO IDEA how large the world was, how many humans
actually lived in this world, and they truly believed what they said, based
on Christ's teaching, were applicable to the entire world, as they
knew
it.
Of course, they also thought that Christ's second coming would be in THEIR
lifetime and taught so... many things they 'thought' with the very best
of
intentions.
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are
MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time simply don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty
of
scripture.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WILLY, your welcome to come to Nebraska anytime............
Thanks so much, and we would LOVE to do just that. ANYWHERE, ANYTIME we
can
spread the GOOD NEWS... we're ON IT!!! LOL
Wes (Willy)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

How far this way do you come? it would be for Weeping Water Nebraska
68463 Not sure just how far this would be for you? Our attendance &
offering have not been the best this past yr.... average 50 - 75
offering around $2 - $3.00 a head.......

..............................................................................

That would be about 850 miles from my door to yours... a bit of a haul!!!!
LOL

We hope to put together a road trip next year and who knows... if we can
put together 5-7 days of singing over 7-10 days, we would do it. We could
make one gigantic swoop from east to west!!!!

We are not a full time group, and at this point that isn't our direction or
intention, but we will let the Lord's will be done - everyone would be most
anxious to be full time if it were somehow possible, but we all work full
time at present and spend most of our weekends either practicing or in
ministry of some sort.

Money isn't a factor - we take none as income, and on rare occasions take
money for gas or lodging, but honestly at this point I think I've taken
perhaps $50.00 total... and can't imagine the thousands I've spent, but it
doesn't matter. Thankfully I can afford it, and there's nothing in this
world I'd rather be doing. So your small church and crowd size wouldn't
matter to us in the least.

It doesn't matter AT ALL, but what faith tradition is your church
(denomination etc...)???.... I'm just always curious. We cross all
protestant faith systems without an issue, and will respect the direction of
the Pastoral leadership completely.

Blessings and thanks for the invite.

Wes

SGMfamily

2008-10-23 05:23:43 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the Christ's death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are
going
to
be eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power, and what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me
that
God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life places you
in the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be
doomed Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is
yes
they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.
The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in heaven
is throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to accept
that fact, we cannot earn it.

1. EVERYONE will have an opportunity to accept salvation. We don't
necessarily know how that works on a spiritual level, but we do know the
Bible says everyone WILL have the opportunity.
2. The apostles had NO IDEA how large the world was, how many humans
actually lived in this world, and they truly believed what they said, based
on Christ's teaching, were applicable to the entire world, as they
knew
it.
Of course, they also thought that Christ's second coming would be in THEIR
lifetime and taught so... many things they 'thought' with the very best
of
intentions.
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are
MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time simply don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty
of
scripture.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WILLY, your welcome to come to Nebraska anytime............
Thanks so much, and we would LOVE to do just that. ANYWHERE, ANYTIME we
can
spread the GOOD NEWS... we're ON IT!!! LOL
Wes (Willy)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

How far this way do you come? it would be for Weeping Water Nebraska
68463 Not sure just how far this would be for you? Our attendance &
offering have not been the best this past yr.... average 50 - 75
offering around $2 - $3.00 a head.......
..............................................................................
That would be about 850 miles from my door to yours... a bit of a haul!!!!
LOL
We hope to put together a road trip next year and who knows... if we can
put together 5-7 days of singing over 7-10 days, we would do it. We could
make one gigantic swoop from east to west!!!!
We are not a full time group, and at this point that isn't our direction or
intention, but we will let the Lord's will be done - everyone would be most
anxious to be full time if it were somehow possible, but we all work full
time at present and spend most of our weekends either practicing or in
ministry of some sort.
Money isn't a factor - we take none as income, and on rare occasions take
money for gas or lodging, but honestly at this point I think I've taken
perhaps $50.00 total... and can't imagine the thousands I've spent, but it
doesn't matter. Thankfully I can afford it, and there's nothing in this
world I'd rather be doing. So your small church and crowd size wouldn't
matter to us in the least.
It doesn't matter AT ALL, but what faith tradition is your church
(denomination etc...)???.... I'm just always curious. We cross all
protestant faith systems without an issue, and will respect the direction of
the Pastoral leadership completely.
Blessings and thanks for the invite.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Willy

2008-10-23 13:21:54 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the
Christ's
death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are
going
to
be eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power,
and
what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me
that
God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life
places
you
in the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be
doomed Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is
yes
they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.
The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in heaven
is throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to accept
that fact, we cannot earn it.

1. EVERYONE will have an opportunity to accept salvation. We don't
necessarily know how that works on a spiritual level, but we do know the
Bible says everyone WILL have the opportunity.
2. The apostles had NO IDEA how large the world was, how many humans
actually lived in this world, and they truly believed what they
said,
based
on Christ's teaching, were applicable to the entire world, as they
knew
it.
Of course, they also thought that Christ's second coming would be in THEIR
lifetime and taught so... many things they 'thought' with the very best
of
intentions.
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are
MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time
simply
don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty
of
scripture.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WILLY, your welcome to come to Nebraska anytime............
Thanks so much, and we would LOVE to do just that. ANYWHERE, ANYTIME we
can
spread the GOOD NEWS... we're ON IT!!! LOL
Wes (Willy)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

How far this way do you come? it would be for Weeping Water Nebraska
68463 Not sure just how far this would be for you? Our attendance &
offering have not been the best this past yr.... average 50 - 75
offering around $2 - $3.00 a head.......
..............................................................................
That would be about 850 miles from my door to yours... a bit of a haul!!!!
LOL
We hope to put together a road trip next year and who knows... if we can
put together 5-7 days of singing over 7-10 days, we would do it. We could
make one gigantic swoop from east to west!!!!
We are not a full time group, and at this point that isn't our direction or
intention, but we will let the Lord's will be done - everyone would be most
anxious to be full time if it were somehow possible, but we all work full
time at present and spend most of our weekends either practicing or in
ministry of some sort.
Money isn't a factor - we take none as income, and on rare occasions take
money for gas or lodging, but honestly at this point I think I've taken
perhaps $50.00 total... and can't imagine the thousands I've spent, but it
doesn't matter. Thankfully I can afford it, and there's nothing in this
world I'd rather be doing. So your small church and crowd size wouldn't
matter to us in the least.
It doesn't matter AT ALL, but what faith tradition is your church
(denomination etc...)???.... I'm just always curious. We cross all
protestant faith systems without an issue, and will respect the direction of
the Pastoral leadership completely.
Blessings and thanks for the invite.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

COOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL First Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). It is
a very long story......... but we are not members or attend this
church......... 5 yrs. ago We booked the Blackwoods at our church
First Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). in Unadilla, The Pastor
use to belong to our church til he became Pastor in Weeping Water, He
heard of our concert from our raido ads, & also wanted the Blackwoods
at his church belive we booked the concert in April the Pastor got
sick & died in July & the concert was in Sept. Since our churches was
fairly close to each other I took over & did most of the promoting
which in doing so became very close with the church... in the mean
time at our church they fired the Pastor & 1/2 of the church went with
him we only had 20 on a good Sun.
We ended up calling off our concert but still had the Weeping Water
one, I just could not leave the Blackwoods with an open date just 2
weeks out from the concert so I rebooked the concert at our small
grade school, both us & the weeping water church had over 500.... at
each concert. Never in my life have ever booked & promoted a concert
before.......... JUST GOT LUCKY.......... I GESS...........
The weeping water church asked us if we would help book 8 - 10
concerts a yr. & have since 2004....to present.
I could........ make this a very long story but better be
closeing........ We have been very, very blessed doing concerts it
would really be good if our attendance was up some.... we have had
some very good groups but about our average is 50 - 75 but we book the
Blackwoods & can get 500.........
Ken

.........................................................

Outstanding success story. We are seriously looking into promotions and
doing some of our own events that involve other groups as well. We just
need to find a way to do it without our "risk" being too great. It's just
SO EXPENSIVE to advertise... as you well know, but if you can target your
hardcore SOGOS audience, then you can usually get the draw needed to support
having top name groups.

Disciples of Christ eh? What a tremendous group, in fact one that we've
considered in our church search since we moved. Plus my first cousin
Pastor's one as well, unfortunately he's several hours away.

Must run this morning - more later.

Wes

SGMfamily

2008-10-23 14:47:23 UTC

Post by Willy
...................................................
So you HONESTLY feel that for hundreds of years after the
Christ's
death,
those living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Jerusalem and
surrounding areas, that never EVER heard anything about it are
going
to
be eternally separated from God with no chance?
What if they still felt a calling in their life to a God power,
and
what
if they had a repentant heart, even though that had no knowledge of
Christ?
Not trying to start an argument, although this group could use a
little
activity LOL, but how can you, with a clear conscience, tell me
that
God
is a "loving God" and at the same time, tell me that if life
places
you
in the wrong place, then destiny chooses that your eternity will be
doomed Godless!
Wes

If you believe what the Bible says (and I do) the quick answer is
yes
they
will be doomed.
The Bible also tells us that in some way, everyone has at least one
opportunity in their life to accept or reject Christ.
The Bible tells us that the one and only way to spend eternity in
heaven
is throught the blood of Christ. He shed it for us and we need to
accept
that fact, we cannot earn it.

1. EVERYONE will have an opportunity to accept salvation. We don't
necessarily know how that works on a spiritual level, but we do know the
Bible says everyone WILL have the opportunity.
2. The apostles had NO IDEA how large the world was, how many humans
actually lived in this world, and they truly believed what they
said,
based
on Christ's teaching, were applicable to the entire world, as they
knew
it.
Of course, they also thought that Christ's second coming would be in THEIR
lifetime and taught so... many things they 'thought' with the very best
of
intentions.
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are
MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time
simply
don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty
of
scripture.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WILLY, your welcome to come to Nebraska anytime............
Thanks so much, and we would LOVE to do just that. ANYWHERE, ANYTIME we
can
spread the GOOD NEWS... we're ON IT!!! LOL
Wes (Willy)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

How far this way do you come? it would be for Weeping Water Nebraska
68463 Not sure just how far this would be for you? Our attendance &
offering have not been the best this past yr.... average 50 - 75
offering around $2 - $3.00 a head.......
..............................................................................
That would be about 850 miles from my door to yours... a bit of a haul!!!!
LOL
We hope to put together a road trip next year and who knows... if we can
put together 5-7 days of singing over 7-10 days, we would do it. We could
make one gigantic swoop from east to west!!!!
We are not a full time group, and at this point that isn't our direction or
intention, but we will let the Lord's will be done - everyone would be most
anxious to be full time if it were somehow possible, but we all work full
time at present and spend most of our weekends either practicing or in
ministry of some sort.
Money isn't a factor - we take none as income, and on rare occasions take
money for gas or lodging, but honestly at this point I think I've taken
perhaps $50.00 total... and can't imagine the thousands I've spent, but it
doesn't matter. Thankfully I can afford it, and there's nothing in this
world I'd rather be doing. So your small church and crowd size wouldn't
matter to us in the least.
It doesn't matter AT ALL, but what faith tradition is your church
(denomination etc...)???.... I'm just always curious. We cross all
protestant faith systems without an issue, and will respect the direction of
the Pastoral leadership completely.
Blessings and thanks for the invite.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

COOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL First Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). It is
a very long story......... but we are not members or attend this
church......... 5 yrs. ago We booked the Blackwoods at our church
First Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). in Unadilla, The Pastor
use to belong to our church til he became Pastor in Weeping Water, He
heard of our concert from our raido ads, & also wanted the Blackwoods
at his church belive we booked the concert in April the Pastor got
sick & died in July & the concert was in Sept. Since our churches was
fairly close to each other I took over & did most of the promoting
which in doing so became very close with the church... in the mean
time at our church they fired the Pastor & 1/2 of the church went with
him we only had 20 on a good Sun.
We ended up calling off our concert but still had the Weeping Water
one, I just could not leave the Blackwoods with an open date just 2
weeks out from the concert so I rebooked the concert at our small
grade school, both us & the weeping water church had over 500.... at
each concert. Never in my life have ever booked & promoted a concert
before.......... JUST GOT LUCKY.......... I GESS...........
The weeping water church asked us if we would help book 8 - 10
concerts a yr. & have since 2004....to present.
I could........ make this a very long story but better be
closeing........ We have been very, very blessed doing concerts it
would really be good if our attendance was up some.... we have had
some very good groups but about our average is 50 - 75 but we book the
Blackwoods & can get 500.........
Ken
.........................................................
Outstanding success story. We are seriously looking into promotions and
doing some of our own events that involve other groups as well. We just
need to find a way to do it without our "risk" being too great. It's just
SO EXPENSIVE to advertise... as you well know, but if you can target your
hardcore SOGOS audience, then you can usually get the draw needed to support
having top name groups.
Disciples of Christ eh? What a tremendous group, in fact one that we've
considered in our church search since we moved. Plus my first cousin
Pastor's one as well, unfortunately he's several hours away.
Must run this morning - more later.
Wes- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Our 1 st 2 yrs. of concerts we did paid ads which cost us ALOT.... We
just happen to run into a lady that writes for a News Paper at a
concert...& she wrote many, many storys for us FREE.... We asked her
just how she did this for FREE, she said the key word is PRESS
RELEASE, this has helped alot.... now we write all of our press
releases ourself, unless the group has something..... which alot of
them do....

Shortly after starting to do concerts we was wanting to build a Gospel
Barn which there is alot of them...all over we found....trying...
different ideas from each one..... In helping book several concerts
for several groups around the area we found alot of churches in our
area WILL NOT BOOK A CONCERT... No matter what group it is....
Since the cost of building, insurance, ect ect. is soooo much We went
to the Weeping Water First Christian Church (Disciples of Christ).
board meetings to see if we could use the church for our Gospel Barn.
We came up with the idea cuz we was going to concerts about every
weekend, driving the miles & getting home at 2am or so......... & or
cost of motel, we figured since the Blackwoods was such a hit in the
area should be able to have about the same with any group..... but
have not seen it YET....
Most of the towns around the area are smaller, 100 - 1000 - 1,500 I
have lived in southeast Nebraska all my life & never remmbering a
group coming to the small towns... but now after doing this for a few
yrs. some of the old timmers tell me Jake Hess & the Blackwoods was in
the very same area yrs ago 40's & 50"s all the time....
Anyway....
Time to start school.... we will talk to you later
Ken

Carol LeFevre

2008-10-18 14:36:07 UTC

Wes,
Could you expound on #3? What doesn't match up as you see it?
Carol

Willy

2008-10-18 14:49:56 UTC

Post by Carol LeFevre
Wes,
Could you expound on #3? What doesn't match up as you see it?
Carol

Carol:

You're the second person that asked me to comment on #3, one by you, and
another in an email.

Which #3 are you referring to? Is it Joel's comment #3, or am I forgetting
something else?

Thanks,

Wes

Carol LeFevre

2008-10-18 15:04:13 UTC

The number three in the response that you wrote.

I apologise Wes, in that I have not yet learned to cut and paste so I
could quote what you wrote. I am taking some computer classes but webtv
is different.

Carol

Willy

2008-10-18 15:54:42 UTC

Post by Carol LeFevre
The number three in the response that you wrote.
I apologise Wes, in that I have not yet learned to cut and paste so I
could quote what you wrote. I am taking some computer classes but webtv
is different.
Carol

That's okay, I turned my "view read messages" back on to find it myself.

Is this the comment you're asking me to expand?

from earlier post......
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time simply don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty of
scripture.

................

Are you saying, give me some examples?

Wes

Jr.

2008-10-18 16:52:40 UTC

That's okay, I turned my "view read messages" back on to find it myself.
Is this the comment you're asking me to expand?
from earlier post......
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time simply don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty of
scripture.
................
Are you saying, give me some examples?
Wes

Be careful Willy, it almost looks like you are saying that the Gospel has
changed since the Apostolic age ceased.

Willy

2008-10-18 19:32:13 UTC

That's okay, I turned my "view read messages" back on to find it myself.
Is this the comment you're asking me to expand?
from earlier post......
3. If you read the NT apostolic writings with an open mind, their are MANY
instances where we find the standards and beliefs of their time simply don't
match up with what we KNOW to be true today. That doesn't discount the
value of the "message"... rather lends a human element in to the beauty of
scripture.
................
Are you saying, give me some examples?
Wes

Be careful Willy, it almost looks like you are saying that the Gospel has
changed since the Apostolic age ceased.

It will NEVER cease to amaze me at how "defensive" all of us, myself
included at times, become in regard to the Bible and it's writings. We
desperately want, because of how we've been taught, to be able to
"literally" read the Bible as though it was from God's lips to mans ears.

The Bible was not written by God. Period. It is actually miraculous in how
it all comes together so perfectly, and therein perhaps the reason we often
refer to the scripture as "the Word" and we hold it in high esteem. How can
we not? The Bible talks about the "Sacred"... about the most high God,
about his Son Jesus Christ... it MUST be held in highest esteem, for it is
writing that we choose to hold sacred. We are so compelled that we might
say, we MUST hold it in this posture.

I'm not taking away anything or discounting or disputing ANY point of
scripture... I'm merely presenting some fact that we now know, that the
writer's couldn't possibly have known, that the Bible was written over 1400
years by dozens of different writer's, and I stand amazed and in awe at how
with such tremendous fluid and poise it all comes together perfectly. No
other book will EVER demonstrate what our Holy Bible does. I hold it in
higher regard than any other document known to man, and am sure I will until
my dying day.

The point of my statement wasn't to demonstrate a Biblical conflict,
although there are dozens, nor is it to in ANY way discount the Bible.
Let's face it. It IS THE SOURCE for Christianity as we know it today.

But I also choose to be logical and intelligent enough to accept that there
are discrepancies and obvious cultural bias that, to me, help demonstrate
the REALITY and BEAUTY that the scripture was penned by men with the very
best of intentions and pureness of heart.

You see, many if not most writer's who have pointed out Biblical discrepancy
and error, do so in an effort to DISCOUNT the value of scripture as a whole.
While fundamentalist on one hand stand on a box and scream "I can't hear
you, I won't listen, I can't hear you, I won't listen"... and BLINDLY
accept a literal reading, this only complicates matters for the reality of
the situation.

Please understand my concern which is this. I've watched Christianity, and
the public perception thereof, radically change over my lifetime. I'm 53
years old, and have rarely missed church on Sunday in my entire life. I was
saved young and have always been involved on some level in evangelism or at
a minimum, church participation. Admittedly I live North of the Mason Dixon
now and have for many years, and the general attitude toward being "born
again" or even using those words makes most everyone in my world bristle.
Sad, but true.

But why is it that a goodly portion of the population in these United States
has come to such a low disregard for the church, the Bible, and the
teachings thereof?

Well, that's a conversation that we could have for days or months, and never
reach a unanimous conclusion.

But back to the point I was trying to make. I feel WE MUST CONSIDER THE
ENTIRE BIBLE AS A WHOLE DOCUMENT. WE MUST READ IT FOR IT'S BEAUTY AS A
LITERARY DOCUMENT UNLIKE ANY OTHER THAT HAS EVER EXISTED. We must stop
taking every story as though it were literal. As science progresses in
wisdom and fact, it will only serve to DISCOUNT the value of the scripture
when we blindly accept every word "literally". It will result in many
fundamental thinking readers loosing FAITH... because when we hold a story
as "fact" and then are presented with indisputable facts to counter that
story... well, it makes the ENTIRE Bible story seem suspect.

Ah, the problem... the reason so many throw out the Bible is because of
LITERALISM. And once you find ONE instance where something doesn't agree,
then you throw away the entire document as invalid.

I don't believe the Bible was ever intended to be taken literally, nor to be
analyzed in such a literal way. There is GREAT danger is teaching a literal
reading as the END RESULT IS DAMAGING to Christianity as a whole. It causes
unbelief. It humiliates the churches that do so.

Now lastly, for I could discuss this matter without end, a couple of you
asked me to site an example as noted in my comments #3 that said we today
"know better" in spite of how the apostles saw it.

I did that already, but let me do it again.

The disciples ALL UNANIMOUSLY felt & taught that Jesus Christ would RETURN
TO THIS EARTH in THEIR LIFETIME. Just a simple reading of the first four
gospels will clearly reveal how they were waiting... they believed with all
their heart that Jesus would come to them again in their lifetime, and they
taught they instructed the churches in the letters we now read as scripture
to believe so.

But of course, it's now 2,000 years later and, unless it happens before I
finish this email, Christ still hasn't returned to them or us.

Does this discount the scripture? NOT AT ALL. You see, in my opinion, we
MISS THE POINT. The point is that Christ is going to return because HE SAID
HE WOULD. We don't know the "day nor the hour"... but we DO PRESENTLY KNOW
FOR SURE, based on a calendar view, that the writer's were MISTAKEN in their
assumption that He would return in their lifetime... mistaken by at least
2,000 years. But to me, unlike many who are looking for a reason to devalue
and harm the Sacred, we GET THE POINT. We don't take the writer LITERALLY
and therefore assume He was a false prophet because he implied in his
lifetime, when in fact it didn't happen.

Blessings to all,

Wes

SG Fan

2008-10-18 20:35:27 UTC

Wes, your post is heresy.
You would NEVER be welcome on the stage of our Church.

Willy

2008-10-18 23:14:10 UTC

Post by SG Fan
Wes, your post is heresy.
You would NEVER be welcome on the stage of our Church.

Heresy? Wow! I didn't see that coming. Care to be more specific about
what statement denoted such a serious charge?

Wes

Heresy defined in Wikipedia:

Used in this way, the term "heresy" has no purely objective meaning: the
category exists only from the point of view of speakers within a group that
has previously agreed about what counts as "orthodox". Any nonconformist
view within any field may be perceived as "heretical" by others within that
field who are convinced that their view is "orthodox"; in the sciences this
extension is made tongue-in-cheek.

Heretics usually do not define their own beliefs as heretical. Heresy is a
value judgment and the expression of a view from within an established
belief system. For instance, Roman Catholics held Protestantism as a heresy
while some non-Catholics considered Catholicism the "Great Apostasy."

SG Fan

2008-10-19 04:04:51 UTC

Is there anything concrete or absolute with you at all? From your
point of view, heresy is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. Well,
fortunately that's not reality. The Word of God is forever settled in
Heaven. It's literal, and it's eternal.
But going back to the original post, you think it's okay if we don't
believe Jesus is divine, or deity. That makes you a heretic. Not
throwing stones, just stating facts.

Carol LeFevre

2008-10-19 05:36:23 UTC

Aha. I see where you and I disagree, Wes. I believe that God is the
author of the Bible. It is His word, He wrote it. Yes, he used men to
scribe the words but the Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Ghost moved
upon them...instructed them what to write. It wasn't just something
that they thought up on their own. It is divinely inspired. llTim. 3:16
It not only contains the word of God, it IS the Word of God. If I don't
have a Bible that I can believe is the very words of God then I have
nothing at all. I don't need another "literary" book.

What has caused the decline of the populace of the US regarding the
Bible, church attendance etc.? That's easy, read II Tim. chapter 3.
The Bible shows men as sinners. (Most) preachers used to preach just
that. But that wasn't popular and men (mankind) didn't want to hear it.
Satan has blinded the eyes of many with all kinds of excuses for not
going to church ( too many hypocrites) or reading the Bible (it contains
errors). No it doesn't. II Tim. 2:15 Study to show thyself approved
unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the
word of God. Scripture interprets scripture.

To be continued. I'm going to bed now.

Carol

Willy

2008-10-20 17:42:31 UTC

Post by Carol LeFevre
Aha. I see where you and I disagree, Wes. I believe that God is the
author of the Bible. It is His word, He wrote it. Yes, he used men to
scribe the words but the Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Ghost moved
upon them...instructed them what to write. It wasn't just something
that they thought up on their own. It is divinely inspired. llTim. 3:16
It not only contains the word of God, it IS the Word of God. If I don't
have a Bible that I can believe is the very words of God then I have
nothing at all. I don't need another "literary" book.
What has caused the decline of the populace of the US regarding the
Bible, church attendance etc.? That's easy, read II Tim. chapter 3.
The Bible shows men as sinners. (Most) preachers used to preach just
that. But that wasn't popular and men (mankind) didn't want to hear it.
Satan has blinded the eyes of many with all kinds of excuses for not
going to church ( too many hypocrites) or reading the Bible (it contains
errors). No it doesn't. II Tim. 2:15 Study to show thyself approved
unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the
word of God. Scripture interprets scripture.
To be continued. I'm going to bed now.
Carol

Carol:

Thanks for the response. By stating your position, you're in fact
reaffirming your own beliefs, and that's always a good thing. And I thank
you for taking the time.

I agree with you, the Bible is a sacred book - there is none other like it
in the world, and never shall be. If you read my post again, never at any
point did I say it was lacking spiritual inspiration.

Was the Bible divinely inspired? Well, let me answer like this. No man, or
men, or system known to man, could have ever assimilated such an incredible
masterpiece over a couple thousand years that flows almost perfectly, with
very little conflict (if any, depending on who you ask)... it is truly
miraculous, and therefore, our heavenly Father most CERTAINLY and DIVINELY
guided the process.

Blessings,

Wes

Pastor Dan

2008-10-19 12:11:50 UTC

Post by SG Fan
Is there anything concrete or absolute with you at all? From your
point of view, heresy is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. Well,
fortunately that's not reality. The Word of God is forever settled in
Heaven. It's literal, and it's eternal.
But going back to the original post, you think it's okay if we don't
believe Jesus is divine, or deity. That makes you a heretic. Not
throwing stones, just stating facts.

SG Fan

2008-10-19 22:33:06 UTC

Dan, many by their own warped and liberal views would consider Jesus
an extremeist, wouldn't you say?
Christ also considered the Word literal. In fact, he said that a man
that only heard His words and didn't take them literally was like a
man that built his house on the sand. Then when the rains, floods and
winds came and beat on that house it fell and GREAT was the fall of
it.
Rest assured that anyone who belittles the Word of God like your
friend Wes, who says MAN decided it was the "Word of God" is gonna
fall. His only hope is stern admonition.
By the way, why would you have such a man to your church to spew his
poison to your congregation? Please tell me?
You know, his views on the deity Christ seem very weak as well.

Jr.

2008-10-20 02:15:45 UTC

Heresy was the word I thought of regarding Willy/Wes' post as well when he
said that God didn't write the Bible.

The Bible is a "God breathed" work. It tells us the only way to heaven -
Jesus Christ.

I don't know where your listening at church went wrong Willy but you are
wrong. Or then again maybe it isn't your fault but the fault of the heretic
in the pulpit that told you that God didn't write the Bible.

Pastor Dan

2008-10-20 16:14:44 UTC

Post by SG Fan
Dan, many by their own warped and liberal views would consider Jesus
an extremeist, wouldn't you say?
Christ also considered the Word literal. In fact, he said that a man
that only heard His words and didn't take them literally was like a
man that built his house on the sand. Then when the rains, floods and
winds came and beat on that house it fell and GREAT was the fall of
it.
Rest assured that anyone who belittles the Word of God like your
friend Wes, who says MAN decided it was the "Word of God" is gonna
fall. His only hope is stern admonition.
By the way, why would you have such a man to your church to spew his
poison to your congregation? Please tell me?
You know, his views on the deity Christ seem very weak as well.

There are warped views both liberal and conservative, and I can
honestly say that from both a theological and a political
perspective. See Jeremiah 17:9.

As for the authorship, the New Testament refers to Scripture as "God-
breathed" rather than "God-penned." This is from 2nd Timothy 3:16.
Again looking at the Greek, we see the term "pneo" which means to
blow. We can relate this most readily to the expressions used in most
English translations, such as the KJV and NKJV which put it as:
"...given by inspiration of God...". In other words, seeing
"inspiration" as we customarily use the term as referring to an
internal idea or direction, rather than an external, physical force,
we believe that the men of the Bible wrote the words as God as they
were given through the Holy Spirit, telling them what ideas,
information, and messages to convey. You'll note that obvious
connection between the terms "Spirit" and "inspiration." These words
are also related to the Greek "pneuma," which means "spirit," but can
also mean "wind".

The Latin Vulgate says "omnis scriptura divinitus inspirata". "All
Scripture God inspired." The personality of the writer, his life
experiences and background all play a part in the words he would
choose to convey those details which God told him to convey. If he
was a skilled communicator, he would also take into account the
intended reader's ability to comprehend the message and likely
reactions. A good example might be Peter's epistles. The language
used in 1st Peter is substantially different from that in 2nd Peter,
and some have used that to question the authenticity of one or the
other. However, 1st Peter clearly indicates that it was written by
Silas (or Silvanus) as a sort of secretary to Peter, whereas the old
fisherman wrote 2nd Peter personally, thus its' somewhat less refined
Greek.

I still intend to tackle the question of the obscure tribes who never
hear, but time's still been at a premium. I'll get there eventually.

Incidentally, in Matthew 7:24-27 and Luke 6:46-49 (the "build your
house on the rock" statements), I can't find Jesus telling anyone to
use a literal interpretation in applying His words to their life. He
tells us we must obey, but to say that He means that literally is
tantamount to cutting off one's right hand and gouging out one's eye.
It is those who let the seed bounce off the path and be eaten by the
birds who face the possibility of having no root in the storm.

SG Fan

2008-10-20 17:15:32 UTC

So dan, YOU say the Bible IS the Word of God, or NOT?
And please speak out of one side of your mouth and not both.
Either you do, or you don't. Which is it?

Willy

2008-10-20 20:30:24 UTC

Post by SG Fan
So dan, YOU say the Bible IS the Word of God, or NOT?
And please speak out of one side of your mouth and not both.
Either you do, or you don't. Which is it?

For heavens sake SG, you are the EPITOME of everything I'm talking about.

Yes, the Bible is the Word of God.... that has little to do with anything I
was saying.

I said it was "the most Sacred".... don't you realize that "the Sacred" is
another way of saying "all of God"... all inclusive, more than we as humans
can say..... "the most"....

Wes

SG Fan

2008-10-20 23:28:35 UTC

Post by Pastor Dan
Incidentally, in Matthew 7:24-27 and Luke 6:46-49 (the "build your
house on the rock" statements), I can't find Jesus telling anyone to
use a literal interpretation in applying His words to their life. He
tells us we must obey, but to say that He means that literally is
tantamount to cutting off one's right hand and gouging out one's eye.
It is those who let the seed bounce off the path and be eaten by the
birds who face the possibility of having no root in the storm.

Dan,
"MT 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it
from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members
should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
If you think Jesus was joking when He said this, then you need a
closer walk with Him.
I believe Him in this verse. Think about it. Is it more profitable
to go through this life with a having both arms, or eyes and be cast
into hell after this short, temporary and uncertain life.
Christ was using a comparison. He was making a point. I take all
that literally. What He said makes perfect sense to me, especially
when I think about the "Rich Man" (found in Lk 16 beginning at verse
19) that lifted up his eyes in torment all those years ago it STILL
there tonight. In AGONY.
I take Christ literally. Consider what He said, and you'll see that
there is no comparison to being physically whole and eternally
condemned.

<BREAK>
Jr, thanks for pasting wes' earlier post.

<BREAK>

Wes, I guess I'm reading you wrong. Earlier I understood you to say
that we should accept Joel Hemphill for what he believes. The post
you wrote STILL reads that way to me.
Also, what you believe the Bible to be still confuses me. You seem to
be saying two things. If that's not the case, and you believe it to
be the literal Word of God, from Genesis to Revelations, then accept
my apologies. Your posts just confuse me.

SG Fan

2008-10-20 23:19:29 UTC

Willy

2008-10-20 17:55:02 UTC

Sg fan:

If it wasn't MAN that declared that the scriptures are THE WORD OF THE
LORD... then please tell me WHO declared it, when and where????

Was it an angel?

Am I forgetting scripture or a part of history that indicated God himself
was on this earth and made a declaration?

We're again gagging on a little bug here, but missing the entire point of
everything I said.

Show me ANYWHERE in the New or Old Testament where we are scripturally
instructed to take EVERY word LITERALLY...

Listen to me please.... when GOD spoke, or CHRIST spoke, I take that VERY
literally. I'm a TOTAL AND COMPLETE fundamentalist in that regard...

But there are Biblical stories and metaphors that are subject to broad
interpretation, NOT literal.

Folks, cut me a break here, I'M A CHRISTIAN just like you, and I attended a
wonderful "fundamental" church yesterday, JUST LIKE YOU... or at least I
hope you did.

I just wish Christianity and churches in America could quit disagreeing over
such little non issues, and collectively come together on what matters...
matters such as justice, love, promoting peace and harmony (except in the
face of injustice, hatred, bigotry etc).... helping each other, loving each
other.. FOR THEY SHALL KNOW US BY OUR LOVE.

Blessings,

Wes

Willy

2008-10-20 17:34:28 UTC

As a Baptist friend frequently observes, the devil lives in the
extremes. I'd be very careful about how I apply the term "literal,"
yet I'd be equally cautious about using Wikipedia to decide such an
important issue. These are from Webster's, as quoted at
Dictionary.com.

1. An opinion held in opposition to the established or commonly
received doctrine, and tending to promote a division or party, as in
politics, literature, philosophy, etc.; -- usually, but not
necessarily, said in reproach.

2. (Theol.) Religious opinion opposed to the authorized doctrinal
standards of any particular church, especially when tending to promote
schism or separation; lack of orthodox or sound belief; rejection of,
or erroneous belief in regard to, some fundamental religious doctrine
or truth; heterodoxy.

3. (Law) An offense against Christianity, consisting in a denial of
some essential doctrine, which denial is publicly avowed, and
obstinately maintained.

Note: "When I call dueling, and similar aberrations of honor, a moral
heresy, I refer to the force of the Greek ?, as signifying a principle
or opinion taken up by the will for the will's sake, as a proof or
pledge to itself of its own power of self-determination, independent
of all other motives." --Coleridge.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

The quote refers to the Greek root, which contains an element of
choice. Those choosing not to believe that which has been passed down
through the centuries as orthodox Christian doctrine do so for a
reason, and that reason is usually to allow themselves the choice of
deciding what is right to believe.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

No argument here Pastor Dan... I intentionally used Wiki as it suited the
point I was trying to make... that being, the only reason I was accused of
heresy was because MY view didn't agree with his or his congregation.

And in reality, if you REALLY read my post, I think most of us would agree
that what I said IS true... it's just "the way I said it" that pushes some
hard core literalists to the edge. Even in using the term 'hard core
literalist" it irritates some, but for the lack of a better definition, I
use it.

When I have time, I'll tear my own post apart in LITERALIST terms and you'll
see what I mean.

AS an example, no one in their right mind could argue that God didn't write
the Bible. We all know without any doubt that human beings actually penned
the paper.

Fundamentalists... calm down!

I'm NOT TAKING AWAY ANYTHING... in fact, my POINT is to demonstrate the
dangers of literalism when applied to scripture.... because just SAYING
THAT upsets FUNDAMENTALISTS or literalists... if doesn't upset hardly
anyone else that is mainline protestant Christian etc... and is an
indisputable fact.

Some theologians feel The Old Testament, particularly the first five books,
were penned with more inspiration than the New Testament, which tends to be
more a collection of historical events and letters which addressed specific
churches and situations - but also serves as the NT guideline for Christian
churches universally. To me it doesn't matter, for all the Bible is about
the most precious subject man will ever know... God, His Son, the Sacred in
general, and how we are to live our lives to please Him.

Hey folks.. I love all of you and I'm not a heretic... but this is the
most conversation we've had on this board in months.

Let's continue to exchange ideas and perhaps actually tear into the Word of
God and deepen our own understanding.

Blessings,

Wes

Willy

2008-10-20 17:20:22 UTC

SG Fan:

Never have I ever said such a thing. Did I mistype or are you confusing
another post that was perhaps mixed in my own?

Just for the record, I CERTAINLY do believe that Jesus was (and is) deity
and divine.

I'm TERRIBLY sorry if anyone felt I said that, I didn't and I wouldn't.

Trust me SG... there's not more than a few hairs difference between your
beliefs and my own... it's just the way I say things to promote "thinking
outside the box" that sometimes get's people on the defense.

Wes

Jr.

2008-10-20 20:18:02 UTC

Post by Willy
Never have I ever said such a thing. Did I mistype or are you confusing
another post that was perhaps mixed in my own?

Willy
Just for the record I have cut and pasted your original statement that God
DID NOT write the Bible.
Here it is - please explain where you got this balogna from. You wrote this
on 10/18 at 2:32pm

It will NEVER cease to amaze me at how "defensive" all of us, myself
included at times, become in regard to the Bible and it's writings. We
desperately want, because of how we've been taught, to be able to
"literally" read the Bible as though it was from God's lips to mans ears.

The Bible was not written by God. Period. It is actually miraculous in how
it all comes together so perfectly, and therein perhaps the reason we often
refer to the scripture as "the Word" and we hold it in high esteem. How can
we not? The Bible talks about the "Sacred"... about the most high God,
about his Son Jesus Christ... it MUST be held in highest esteem, for it is
writing that we choose to hold sacred. We are so compelled that we might
say, we MUST hold it in this posture.

I'm not taking away anything or discounting or disputing ANY point of
scripture... I'm merely presenting some fact that we now know, that the
writer's couldn't possibly have known, that the Bible was written over 1400
years by dozens of different writer's, and I stand amazed and in awe at how
with such tremendous fluid and poise it all comes together perfectly. No
other book will EVER demonstrate what our Holy Bible does. I hold it in
higher regard than any other document known to man, and am sure I will until
my dying day.

The point of my statement wasn't to demonstrate a Biblical conflict,
although there are dozens, nor is it to in ANY way discount the Bible.
Let's face it. It IS THE SOURCE for Christianity as we know it today.

But I also choose to be logical and intelligent enough to accept that there
are discrepancies and obvious cultural bias that, to me, help demonstrate
the REALITY and BEAUTY that the scripture was penned by men with the very
best of intentions and pureness of heart.

You see, many if not most writer's who have pointed out Biblical discrepancy
and error, do so in an effort to DISCOUNT the value of scripture as a whole.
While fundamentalist on one hand stand on a box and scream "I can't hear
you, I won't listen, I can't hear you, I won't listen"... and BLINDLY
accept a literal reading, this only complicates matters for the reality of
the situation.

Please understand my concern which is this. I've watched Christianity, and
the public perception thereof, radically change over my lifetime. I'm 53
years old, and have rarely missed church on Sunday in my entire life. I was
saved young and have always been involved on some level in evangelism or at
a minimum, church participation. Admittedly I live North of the Mason Dixon
now and have for many years, and the general attitude toward being "born
again" or even using those words makes most everyone in my world bristle.
Sad, but true.

But why is it that a goodly portion of the population in these United States
has come to such a low disregard for the church, the Bible, and the
teachings thereof?

Well, that's a conversation that we could have for days or months, and never
reach a unanimous conclusion.

But back to the point I was trying to make. I feel WE MUST CONSIDER THE
ENTIRE BIBLE AS A WHOLE DOCUMENT. WE MUST READ IT FOR IT'S BEAUTY AS A
LITERARY DOCUMENT UNLIKE ANY OTHER THAT HAS EVER EXISTED. We must stop
taking every story as though it were literal. As science progresses in
wisdom and fact, it will only serve to DISCOUNT the value of the scripture
when we blindly accept every word "literally". It will result in many
fundamental thinking readers loosing FAITH... because when we hold a story
as "fact" and then are presented with indisputable facts to counter that
story... well, it makes the ENTIRE Bible story seem suspect.

Ah, the problem... the reason so many throw out the Bible is because of
LITERALISM. And once you find ONE instance where something doesn't agree,
then you throw away the entire document as invalid.

I don't believe the Bible was ever intended to be taken literally, nor to be
analyzed in such a literal way. There is GREAT danger is teaching a literal
reading as the END RESULT IS DAMAGING to Christianity as a whole. It causes
unbelief. It humiliates the churches that do so.

Now lastly, for I could discuss this matter without end, a couple of you
asked me to site an example as noted in my comments #3 that said we today
"know better" in spite of how the apostles saw it.

I did that already, but let me do it again.

The disciples ALL UNANIMOUSLY felt & taught that Jesus Christ would RETURN
TO THIS EARTH in THEIR LIFETIME. Just a simple reading of the first four
gospels will clearly reveal how they were waiting... they believed with all
their heart that Jesus would come to them again in their lifetime, and they
taught they instructed the churches in the letters we now read as scripture
to believe so.

But of course, it's now 2,000 years later and, unless it happens before I
finish this email, Christ still hasn't returned to them or us.

Does this discount the scripture? NOT AT ALL. You see, in my opinion, we
MISS THE POINT. The point is that Christ is going to return because HE SAID
HE WOULD. We don't know the "day nor the hour"... but we DO PRESENTLY KNOW
FOR SURE, based on a calendar view, that the writer's were MISTAKEN in their
assumption that He would return in their lifetime... mistaken by at least
2,000 years. But to me, unlike many who are looking for a reason to devalue
and harm the Sacred, we GET THE POINT. We don't take the writer LITERALLY
and therefore assume He was a false prophet because he implied in his
lifetime, when in fact it didn't happen.

Blessings to all,

Wes

b***@gmail.com

2020-02-09 17:51:54 UTC